Small Times
Jazz fusion, indie rock, dub, skacore, post-punk, neo-psych and more.
Evenin’ (or mornin’ or afternoon, or when/wherever you happen to be)!
What’s new? You’ll notice I missed a few posts here or there the last couple of weeks. I have been trying to get either one or the other - the new music Friday post, or the barrel-of-reviews post - once a week at least. In an ideal world, I’d get both out every week, but my ambitions exceed me. Something I’m learning more about these days, as I try and dive into actually learning about ADHD a year-plus after actually being diagnosed with it. Huh, guess that checks out, yeah?
And finally, it appears I’m approaching 250 subscribers to this here newsletter. Something that I find incredibly bewildering, but has me feeling like I really should keep at this little newsletter thing.
Which brings me to something that has been on my mind: for those of you who read this closely, I’d love some more feedback or comments around formatting. Is the more the merrier when it comes to these huge review bomb posts? Do you like the icon-emoji system, or is it entirely useless? Would you prefer I had an index on these posts of reviews so you can see what you’re getting into, or do you like scrolling through not knowing what will be around the next corner, or er, scroll?
Anyway, hope you find something to listen to this week!
Icon legend:
⛏️ denotes picks of the week.
🌱 seedling denotes albums I liked, but may grow on me.
✨ means worth a look, if you like the genres listed in particular.
✂ on a review denotes choice cuts from an album
As always, please reach out on the hellsite if you’d like or better yet join the Rosy Overdrive Discord server where I can be found now and again. You can also find me in the corners of Rate Your Music scrounging for obscure emo, hardcore, indie-rock and pop-punk.
Don’t forget: if you’re reading this in your email it will be cut off. Read on the web for the full list of reviews!
⛏️ Johnnie Carwash - No Friends No Pain (2024)
Genre: Indie Rock, Pop Punk, Jangle Pop
Wrote about their previous record on my blog/newsletter but didn't like the album quite enough for it to end up on my year-end list. I did like it quite a bit though, so I know I had this album on my radar (and think I even tried a few songs off it) but somehow it slipped past getting a closer inspection from me until today.
The band is still playing noisy pop with garage-indie and poppy punk(ish) elements, that hasn't changed much. But based on my memory of that other record, I feel like they've tightened up their songs and even streamlined some elements. I think these songs have less highs and lows, and the album feels more consistent as a result. There's still a lot of rambunctious energy, but potentially I'm reacting to it being focused more intently so when they let loose on a noisy section (“Anxiety”) it has more impact.
Anyway, if you like catchy, sunny guitar noise-pop this is a solid set of songs and it checks out by the 30 minute mark before you get too tired of their sound. Good stuff!
✂ Hate Myself, Anxiety, What a Life, I'm a Mess
⛏️ Louie Zong - Aquarium City (2024)
Genre: City Pop, Jazz Fusion, Jazz-Funk, Acid Jazz
A modern take on jazz fusion (more on that later) that also hits on City Pop and other digital fusion styles of genres. I’ve heard some Louie Zong in the past (Rat Taxi had the kind of album art and name you just cannot skip past) but their work hadn’t grabbed me in a top-to-bottom album kind of way… until now. Maybe it’s the fusion I’ve been listening to (again, more on that later 😇) but all eight songs here just hit perfectly this week. Highly enjoyable stuff.
🌱 Los Campesinos! - All Hell (2024)
Genre: Indie Rock, Post-Punk Revival, Midwest Emo, Emo-Pop
I keep seeing people saying “Justice for LC!” in regards to this getting high scores or good reception (or best new music from p4k) or calling this a comeback album, which is weird to me. LC! have spent a lot of their career getting better with age (and who pretty consistently received good-to-great reviews?)
Sick Scenes may not have been their best, but it continued their consistency that hit a real high mark with No Blues in 2013. For a band that you could have fairly assumed would never be able to match their youthful and amateurish (but maybe overly-hyped?) debut, they've had a remarkable career.
All Hell feels a little like a grower for me, I don't think this matches the highs they've had on their last few records but it continues their (again) incredibly consistent run of albums.
I just don't think this has any super addictive home runs like “Renato Dall'Ara (2008)” or “What Death Leaves Behind” (maybe "“Clown Blood/Orpheus’ Bobbing Head” approaches this by sheer energy level) but regardless it does have a big stack of really strong songs that I enjoy a lot. I will continue to take very good records from this band because they do it well.
🌱 Marcel Wave - Something Looming (2024)
Always interested in what members of Sauna Youth are getting up to, a) because Distractions is an album that has really stuck in my mind over the years and b) I enjoyed that Wicketkeeper record which was produced by Lindsay Corstorphine.
This definitely sounds like an Sauna Youth adjacent project; noisy and buzzy post-punk guitar rock, etc. Definitely enjoyable for fans of the sound but unsure upon initial listen how strong this will stay in my rotation. It's good stuff, liked it while it was on, but my usual spiel here about whether or not I end up coming back again and again like I did with something like Distractions.
⛏️ Yu-Ching Huang - The Crystal Hum (2024)
Genre: Neo-Psychedelia, Ambient Pop
Very cool stuff; kind of an ambient, distant, atmospheric and obscure pop record. Vague hooks and a lot of reverberating textures bouncing off one another. At times it resembles dream pop and other times it feels more like trying to grasp at an airy mist (non-derogatory.)
There are touchstones - the guitar on “Thunder in Heaven” might bring to mind early Wild Nothing. “The Song of Summer” might remind you of an interlude off a proto-chillwave record that doesn't exist. “John John” has a kind of neo-dub bounce to it. But these comparisons don't really make sense, even if they do pop into your mind.
That's part of what made this record fascinating to listen to.
Dog Day - A T-shirt with Writing on It (2024)
Genre: Indie Rock
Dog Day have always eschewed an easy description - Night Group was rooted in full band indie guitar pop, Concentration added more post-punk influence, Deformer stripped things back to a guitar-and-drums duo, Present has a more pronounced 80s influence - but in some ways all of these sounds were weaved through their records from the beginning. Night Group had post-punk influences on it from the start, and there was always a slight 80s vibe to some of their songs and keyboard flourishes, even on earlier albums.
So, A T-shirt with Writing on It isn't exactly a “return to form” record, because to what form? It does feel like they are turning back to some of their simpler strengths. KC Spindle, their original drummer, has contributed to their post-full-band records in the past (and on the kit for Present) but here it feels more like a group rekindling old times and old textures.
A lot of the songs here recall Deformer in production, but Night Group in their forms. “Phase” has a twisting melody and melancholic tone that recalls the latter and you could imagine a fuller band version of “Loose Thoughts” appearing on it as well.
Dog Day have always been a reliable band. Over the course of 17 years they've released a lot of really strong, consistent material that bounced around in genres and tones. In some ways, A T-shirt with Writing on It feels more like a comfortable blanket than an album. I know these voices and I know these types of songs even though these ones in particular are new to me. They remind me of a certain time of my life circa 2011, when I was living in Toronto, seeing 3 or 4 concerts a week, and listening to their first three records a whole lot. Maybe there's something distinctly Canadian about the nostalgia that this album pulls out of me?
Even as the album takes a sad turn (“I Messed it Up” into “Way to Go” ends things on a gloomy note [not surprising for a band self-described as “gloom pop”]) it's feels good to have them back after 4 years.
✨ Radar - Radar (2024)
Genre: Pop Punk, Garage Punk
Garage punk rock with power pop hooks and multiple singers. I may be overrating this a little but I do have a lot of time for this sound, and the songs are consistently pretty rock solid. Definitely has a “people from other bands emulating a sound they really love” vibe which adds an endearing element.
Features members of Adult Magic, The Backup Plan, Giant Peach and The Meltaways.
RIYL: The Marked Men, Big Eyes, Future Virgins, Hidden Spots, Dirtnap Records etc.
great area - light decline (2024)
Genre: Hypnagogic Pop, Indie Pop, Glitch Pop
Cool stuff that probably fits somewhere between bedroom indietronica and indie pop, with elements of glitchy electronics. Chill atmosphere, kind of slid in my brain and out the other side but I was liking this for sure. Nice basslines. Nothing wildly spectacular but well played and sounds good. Would be interested in where they take this on further releases.
🌱 Ben Seretan - Allora (2024)
Genre: Indie Rock, Indie Folk, Heartland Rock, Americana
Ben Seretan is listed as ambient / indie folk / modern classical on their Rate Your Music page, so you can assume Ben Seretan's latest record will cover a lot of ground. And yet, it’s much more straightforward than those genres might have you think. This does skirt from atmospheric folky numbers and wider screened, lightly psychedelic and often noisy (“New Air”) indie rock, but... cohesively?
Despite containing two 8+ minute tracks, this feels compact in a way. Maybe it's the rock and roll trio formation the band has taken on that allows them to feel agile and composed while simultaneously experimental? The kind of album that could still be accurately described while using juxtaposed language like: mellow, explorative, chill, abrasive, meditative, rootsy and more.
I think overall this is quite great, but I'm feeling distance from it. One of those records where I feel like I am admiring it rather than engaging with it. That could change with time though.
Mayhemic - Toba (2024)
Genre: Thrash Metal, Black Metal
Solid modern thrash record; some blackened thrash and maaaaaaaybe a little death in here too. Mostly functioned as background to my work so will have to try again with closer scrutiny but for now, pretty good!
A Jazz Fusion Diversion
I have to throw a tip of the hat to my good friend Irme, who grabbed a Jean-Luc Ponty record at our local record shop during a visit and got me on a jazz fusion kick (a genre I’ve explored, but nowhere near what could be called thoroughly.)
⛏️ Jean-Luc Ponty - Cosmic Messenger (1978)
Genre: Jazz Fusion, Jazz-Rock, Progressive Rock
Jazz fusion is another genre where it can be hard for me to parse what does and does not work for any given album. This could be called standard jazz fusion with a proggy feel (in vibe more than track lengths) plus a good dose of synths and a generally nerdy air.
For just under 40 minutes it jams pretty hard. User merton calls this “D&D Jazz” in their review and I need more of that in my life, for sure.
(Note: of course I went ahead and started a “🐉 D&D Fusion” list over on Rate Your Music.)
The Chick Corea Elektric Band - The Chick Corea Elektric Band (1986)
Genre: Jazz Fusion, Jazz-Rock, Mario Kart Fusion? lol
It's amusing to me that the reception of this album seems to have a lot of jazz fusion purist-types balking at the 80s production and use of FM synths and MIDI sounding shit. That's exactly why this rules! Sega genesis ass jazz fusion album? Hell yeah.
Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior (1976)
Genre: Jazz Fusion, Jazz-Rock, Progressive Rock
A jazz fusion record with that kind of album art? You know exactly what this will be like. Prog-fusion Medieval shit (non-derogatory) that also sounds like a video game soundtrack sometimes (VERY non-derogatory). The warm synths on Duel of the Jester and the Tyrant (Part I) are so damn good!
Jean-Luc Ponty - Mystical Adventures (1982)
Genre: Jazz Fusion, Progressive Rock
More D&D-ass fusion from Jean-Luc Ponty, this time even moreso as it starts with a 5-part title track suite before some more self-contained movements on the second side (though even that side contains a 2-part “Final Truth” track haha).
I dunno, it's cheesy but I love this intersection of fusion and prog with fantasy accoutrements. Trying to find more artists and albums that hit these three things just perfectly has been really tough to be honest, but I crave more.
Jean-Luc Ponty - Civilized Evil (1980)
Genre: Jazz Fusion, Progressive Rock, Space Rock
A bit more varied in the second half than Ponty's other stuff that I've heard (though I'm sticking to their records with dope album cover art haha) and has a bit more fonk/rock to it on songs like “Happy Robots” or “Good Guys, Bad Guys”. The B side becomes a little more standard fusion sound, but does retain an air of fantasy or prog with songs like “Shape Up Your Mind”.
“Demagomania” is pure warm synth nerd fusion though, so hell yeah.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled circling back…
✨ Spillers - Brush It Off (2019)
Genre: Pop Punk
Crunchy modern pop punk with an orgcore-esque flair. Has a Alkaline Trio thing going on (“Spider Fingers”) here and there.
I dig their overall sound, certainly derivative of those late-90s and early-00s poppy punk bands like Alkaline who still had some skate punk-ish elements in their sound without being capital “p” Punk... but endearingly so. The melodies are strong enough to stick but maybe not hooky enough to be ear worms you'll remember later.
Something like “Black or Blue” is just perfectly evocative of a certain time and place in pop punk in a way that I really enjoyed. Great bass performance on this record too, really active runs but not so much that it pulls too much focus from the simple pop punk tunes contained here.
I'm hearing Joey Cape in the chorus of “Vegas,” which maybe sounds like some of the simpler, non-thrashy pop songs Lagwagon might have pulled off on Hoss. Maybe a small pinch of Smoking Popes too? The majority of their sound is definitely Alkaline Trio worship (particularly the first three records), but there's shades to it for sure.
Overall, 26 minutes of fairly well above average pop punk... not bad at all. Their Spotify page says they were working on a follow-up but no idea when that was written. Would listen to it though!
✂ Vegas, Spider Fingers, Black or Blue
✨ Cleveland Bound Death Sentence - Cleveland Bound Death Sentence (1999)
Genre: Punk Rock
Cleveland Bound Death Sentence was a project of Paddy Costello (of Dillinger Four) and Aaron Cometbus (of Crimpshrine, Pinhead Gunpowder and more) which also featured Emily of The Salteens, and John Pierson (aka Spitball.)
They recorded some seven-inches and there was a collection on Lookout! Records (now out of print), so No Idea Records put out this collection in 2013 of their material.
If you like Dillinger Four (particularly their earlier stuff) then you know what to expect here. It's 14 songs, 18 minutes, and the mix of singers and songwriters makes for an engaging and varied listen, even if it never strays too far from sounding “like a band with members of Dillinger Four, Crimpshrine and Pinhead Gunpowder would sound like.”
In particular I like Emily's contributions to singing here on the otherwise really scrappy, crusty recordings - they really underline the melodies and when they harmonize it adds a nice change to the expected sound.
Maybe it's because it sounds so expected, but I'm surprised this has so few ratings considering the people involved.
⛏️ Jets to Brazil - Orange Rhyming Dictionary (1998)
Genre: Indie Rock
This is one of those albums where the “conventional wisdom” around it (that Blake Schwarzenbach got all their best post-Jawbreaker work out on this album and everything they've done since was diminishing returns) is actually kind of true.
It's a huge slab of an album - 52 minutes, songs that (almost) exclusively live in the territory between 4 and 5+ minutes. And yet, top to bottom it's a phenomenal album of guitar rock and emo ballads.
Blake has some incredible songs scattered on records after this one, but this is their one true post-Jawbreaker masterpiece. It's no wonder that the song on Four Cornered Night called “Orange Rhyming Dictionary” is one of the better tracks there, as it sounds like it was recorded for this album and left off.
Produced by J. Robbins so obviously it sounds great.
Mute Beat - Flower (1987)
I'm not an expert in dub, so I don't know how this varies in subtleties compared to your standard dub (the general stuff I see about this act/record is that it's often in a minor key and has darker/sophisticated vibe overall, and that it was very influential in the Japanese dub scene). Sophisti-dub? Is that a thing?
It worked very good as mood setting dub in the background of doing some work today. Maybe it was because I was only paying a certain level of attention to it, but it felt a little same-y. Good stuff though, very enjoyable. I like dub in general so I liked this, not a whole lot else to say.
The Get Up Kids - Something to Write Home About (1999)
Hearing this for the first time in high school? Forgetaboutitttt!! And man it was not cool. In 1999/2000 all my friends read Pitchfork and let me tell you, they didn't like this album and were happy to rip you a new one over it, lol.
I always enjoyed the scrappy nature of Four Minute Mile as much as anyone, but they really leveled up on this release. Sure, they leaned further into emo-pop and away from any elements of their sound that could be claimed as punk-adjacent, but they did so with a bag full off very strong melodies.
There are some weaker tracks here - I've never been all that fond of the sleepy three-track finale. “Long Goodnight” is good, but feels like an album closer and then you've got 2 more songs to sit through. “Close to Home” and “I'll Catch You” just feel a bit like a bonus seven-inch at the end of the album or something.
But otherwise? Total emo-pop sugar rush. Nostalgia does some lifting but I think this stands up due to the strengths the majority of these songs.
Ozma - Rock and Roll Part Three (2001)
Genre: Power Pop, Geek Rock, Indie Rock, Emo, Emo-Pop
In 2001, I was waiting in line to see The Ataris and Lagwagon at The Warehouse in Toronto. Someone was passing out Ozma fliers and saying how they were “like Weezer, but better”. Now, I've looked up Ozma concerts and I'm pretty sure they didn't play in Toronto around that time so maybe they were a Kung Fu Records street team promoting Rock and Roll Part Three which dropped later that year? Were they promoting that contest for fans to vote for Ozma on the Yahoo! Outloud Tour with Weezer maybe? No idea.
Anyway, long story short that was the first time I had heard of them. At the time I was a pretty big Weezer fan and balked at the idea of Ozma being better. Over in the comments section on Rate Your Music, you can find people still arguing about how much this does or does not resemble the big ol' W so obviously there's a lot of that in their sound.
But regardless, it's a strong album of power-pop geek rock so even had they never been so strongly entwined with that band, I think this would have reached a cult audience. This does have some potent nostalgia baked into it, taking me back to the days of downloading albums off IRC xdcc bots and sending MP3s back and forth with online friends via instant messengers.
I can't deny that for someone who didn't come across this album at just the right time (likely as a fan of Weezer who was also a terminally online type person circa 2001 / 2002 etc.) then the hype for this is going to seem weird. It was a right time right place thing for sure, but these songs have a youthful ambition that allows them to sidestep the usual downfalls of geek rock from the era.
Does it deserve to be bolded on Rate Your Music? I dunno, I do still continue to enjoy revisiting this and, not to keep bringing them into it, as a fan of Weezer, I got used to overlooking embarrassing lyrics at a young age so that's not a huge issue for me. The band would go on to release more albums with some good high points (I had some time for Pasadena in 2007 for sure) but this remains their high water mark. Plus, “Battlescars” still rips.
Hold Tight! - I Always Leave But Never Say Goodbye (2014)
Genre: Pop Punk
Whenever I am in the mood for this kind of emo-influenced, anthemic punk rock / pop punk stuff, Hold Tight! is one of the first bands I reach for because a) I only heard about them a year or so ago from dewtaylo's reviews and b) they just nail it so well on this EP and their Blizzard of '96 LP. Big riffs, huge hooks, major singalongs abound. What ever happened to them, or the people in the band?? I crave more from them.
Missing Earth - Gold, Flour and Salt (2018)
Genre: Indie Rock
This record was spearheaded by Kyle Gilbride (of Swearin' and also notable producer) and features contributions from Katie Crutchfield (Waxahatchee) and Maryn Jones (All Dogs, Yowler, Saintseneca) as well as Jeff Bolt (drummer of Swearin'.)
Basically, a varied list of people who have created some of my favourite music of the 2010s. This is one of those grab-bag indie rock records. Sometimes it's a bit spacey and droney, other times it's a little heavier and noisy.
This landed on my year-end list for the year it came out, and revisiting it I still really like it even if it's a little uneven and all over the map. Katie and Maryn's contributions on backing vocals are really quite strong and they leave a big mark on the record for me, even if their work isn't really the focus.
The Hippos - Heads Are Gonna Roll (1999)
Genre: Ska Punk, Pop Punk, Power Pop
I have always loved the lead-off track “Lost It” here, as it scratches that itch for huge, hooky pop-rock (with bonus ska elements.) As someone who loves They Might Be Giants and Fountains of Wayne, I always have time for genre-hopping, nasally pop nerdery. And yet, every time some of the other songs like “Wasting my Time” or “Struggling” started to play, I would back away slowly. That's why this record is a good testament to trying again and again sometimes. I knew there were hooks here that I could dig into, it's just I either was never in the mood, or just wasn't dropping my guard and letting them do their work or something.
Anyway, this is really fun! Total geek rock with ska elements and synthy power-pop cheese. It's a marvel that something as goofy as “The Sand” still works on the strength of its melodies.
dewtaylo on Rate Your Music nails it again with the description of “Motion City Soundtrack had a baby with The Aquabats” but like I said earlier I'd toss some Fountains of Wayne in there too in how they can hop genres on something like “Paulina”.
Rx Bandits - Progress (2001)
Genre: Ska Punk, Post-Hardcore, Reggae Rock, Progressive Rock
In hindsight, it's kind of nuts that this came out on Drive-Thru Records. Rx Bandits' previous work was more straight-forward ska-punk and made sense for a label who would also work with Home Grown (post-Ska Home Grown, but still.) I first heard this around the time that The Resignation was coming out, and even then it sounded pretty fresh in the ska-punk genre to me.
Anyway, this record hints at where the band would go later - fully embracing a “prog-ska” sound - but here it's all still just a pile of ideas bumping up upon one another. "VCG³" and "Consequential Apathy" see them taking post-hardcore guitar riffs and adding ska-punk grooves to them. "Analog Boy", which at the time seemed like the band's "hit", has the reggae verses with the ska-punk hooky choruses you'd expect from the genre. And the album definitely has a bunch of alt-rock elements, possibly heightened by Matthew Embree's vocals. Lyrically they still feel a little like standard sardonic political platitudes (“Conform! Believe! Anything you see on TV!” etc.) but it is a far cry from "circus/marching band ska" of the era.
The general idea here of mixing in a bunch of genres into a ska-punk stew does still feel engaging to me. At times it comes of as comedically straight-faced or self-important (all the little sound collage-y / instrumental diversions that end their songs, etc.) and I think Embree puts on a pretty intense fake “reggae voice” on some songs. In that way they definitely inch into some un-cool territories that could bring to mind Sublime or 311 or something for some people. But still, the band is a lot more adept at reggae grooves than many third-wave acts, which is a nice change.
All in all, it's a bit of a mess of inspirations and ambitions, but endearingly so. As long as you aren't allergic to any of these ingredients, which would be entirely fair tbh.
Pezz - Warmth and Sincerity (1999)
Bit of a mix of sounds here - part punk, part emo, some pop-punk, and a bit of that punk-adjacent alt-rock 90s thing as well. A few times it dips into EpiFat adjacent stuff too (“False Prophets”).
Produced by Albini, so at the very least it sounds good. Biggest issue here, as often happens, is that the record isn't super memorable. Another album that sounded pretty good while it was on, and that sticks in mind as something I enjoyed, but we'll see when I check in on this again.
Waterdog - Waterdog (1995)
Genre: Pop Punk
A decent example of forgotten pop-punk that sounds very derivative of the other, more popular acts at the time, but manages to rise above total mediocrity through energy and verve. This is like squeaky clean Green Day (“Can't Let Go”) - so... Squirtgun maybe? - that also sounds a little like a scrappier Fenix TX, but unlike that band their melodies are peppy enough to carry these songs imo.
Pretty odd that this was the band's sole release and also came out on a major label. Obviously there's a lot of also-ran pop-punk from this era, but major label stuff that has disappeared as entirely as this one did? Interesting. Had this come out on a label more attuned to bubblegum pop punk (Lookout! Records?) I'd be willing to bet it'd at least have a few stray “they could have been bigger!” cult fans somewhere.
Is it the most memorable album in the world? Not exactly, but it's well played and is 35 minutes long and held my attention more than some similar albums. That's got to amount for something right?
Versus You - Worn and Loved (2019)
Genre: Punk Rock
Hearing this, I swore it was a side project of someone from The Gamits because for some reason they just sounded incredibly familiar to me and that's the name that came to mind. This kind of sits somewhere between the Hot Water Music flannel-punk sound and a slicker, poppier hook-led vibe, similar to Banner Pilot. It's incredibly... OK.
The songs just aren't strong enough to stick to my brain I think. They sound good, they're played well, they are relatively melodic in a sense, but the hooks aren't there and nothing gets stuck in my head once the 34 minutes are over.
The band is good enough that I might check out an earlier record or two and see if the same problem persists on their other work.
The Mighty Mighty Bosstones - More Noise and Other Disturbances (1992)
Genre: Ska Punk, Third Wave Ska, Skacore
Re-watched Clueless last night and the band's appearance and performance of “Where'd You Go?” reminded me that I've been meaning to try this album out in full.
I dunno, I keep wanting to like this more than I do. “Where'd You Go?” is strong, plus “I'll Drink To That” and “They Came to Boston” are great too. A lot of these other songs are just kind of lightweight - “Cowboy Coffee” is fun but also barely a song? Maybe there's something to be said in how it gets in and out under 2 minutes, but I think I just like the push-and-pull between their ska- and core- elements bumping together versus songs that are one or the other?
Good energy and vibe but as an album, file under: maybe one day they'll click for me, but not today.
That’s it, that’s all. Be excellent to one other.
23 minute read time lets gooo - thanks as always
The crystal hum is right up my alley. Loving this list